Job Searching as Executives in a Tough Market | Kelly Williamson and Lisa Bailey #057

Hey everyone, it's Karissa from Shining Light on Minnesota. I'm super excited. I have some fun guests here with me today. Kelly Williamson and Lisa Bailey. Welcome, ladies. Good morning, everyone. Yes. So, let's start off and tell everybody a little bit about your history and kind of what got you to where you're at today. Let's start with you, Lisa. Okay. Yeah. Um, yeah, happy to. So, I was thinking about this as we were going into today, and I thought, you know, it really started when I was in my 20s, when I was in college. I I thought about I was going into my major as a math major. like who does that? And I thought I was going to flunk out and then I transitioned and saw that that marketing was an area that maybe I should look at. Yeah. And I from that point on I've just loved it ever since. And so and what's been great is marketing is not just advertising and things like that. It has a lot of data and numbers associated with it. So my love of numbers and the fact that I love to um work with consumers and and how to market to consumers has just been a sweet spot for me. And so I've just loved it and my career has been such a pleasure for myself, you know, and I've worked with really great brands. Um, so I just um it is just something that started back way back then that I knew that this is something I wanted to do based on a transition that people do all the time with their majors in college and marketing has evolved a lot since then, too. It's completely different. Yeah, it's completely different. What about you, Kelly? Yeah, I I'm raising a daughter like this, too. But I knew right away, like I knew when I was in high school, I had my path, you know, set out. I used to ride to school um with my mom. She was a nurse at the male clinic, but our school was about a block and a half away from the clinic. So I knew you back then, so I used to ride in with her and and then I would walk over to school and I as soon as I entered the hospital, like I knew that was not for me. I just knew like I couldn't do that kind of work. But my dad had more the business side and I always just felt more compelled there. So when I got into school, I didn't know exactly what I was going to do, but I knew I was going to do something in the business arena. And then actually my degree is in marketing. And I probably um it's funny, I've picked it up in different, you know, jobs along the way. But my I would say I've done more in a general business sense than I have specifically in marketing. Yes. Um but I knew right away like and I just I don't know. I just felt like it was I just knew like when my dad would talk about stuff, I just knew that's what it drove you to where you're at. Yeah. It was once something that intrigued you. Yeah. How do you ladies feel when everybody says, "Hey, I'm a marketer." Even though they're not. Like everybody that picks up their phone, they're like, "Hey, I can I can market. I'm a marketer because I can do social media." Right. Yeah. You know, it's so common. It's common in business for sure. Everybody in the organization thinks they're a marketer. Um and I think because we're all consumers. Yes. And so because we are like we know what we all individually want, what messages resonate with us, we all think, oh well then I can market for this company or this organization. It is something that we deal with. It is something that um you know you have to come to appreciate a little bit too because everybody is a consumer. And so for for us both Kelly and I were at Sleep Number for many years and that brand in particular everybody sleeps right. Everybody knows what's going to resonate why they have trouble sleeping or what their sleep issues were. So we we take that all with a grain of salt and but just understand that we need to understand and listen because they are consumers. Yes. And fast forward to today, you guys were looking for jobs, looking for positions. How difficult was that this day and age being that we're older and you have the experience, you have the mentality, you're well established, you knew where you're at and you don't want to go back to, hey, I don't want to go to back to a temp agency. I don't want to look for recruiting. You're well established. I You don't want to go back to networking either. Like, how do you promote yourself? Yeah. Well, you you do you kind of have to, right? So, I mean, for Lisa and I both, we had been in organizations where we had operated at an executive level for many years. Um, high performing. And so, for me at least, I was a little surprised when I got laid off. That was really hard. Like, I couldn't say the word unemployment or I got laid off. That was something I had to learn to like say out loud. But um you know, fast forward here, it's almost been a year. This is the pivot I didn't know I needed in my life. And so I am like forever grateful for this transition period, but it was not an easy road. And it was very difficult. And I think, you know, we were kind of joking a little bit before we started the podcast about like we've grown up in the last year. And I think this process has a way of, you know, it's it's a whole new learning at this age after this many years of experience in a career or in a um particular company. Um we kind of had to relearn. we had to we literally had to pick ourselves back up because there's what people don't I don't think realize about the process of transition for whatever reason you're in it is it's a grief journey and um you know you're kind of mourning the loss of who you were what you were when you had that title or you had that position or you were that in that level of influence within an organization and so it it becomes this humbling sort of experience but it also can be really gratifying because you don't realize the growth and development you'll go through when you have to work through, you know, this period of time. Yeah. We um in the process, Kelly and I talk a lot about it because we're kind of each other's support throughout the the because we left at the same time. Um we've been amazed at how generous people have been. Absolutely. I mean, cuz I you know, I was at Sleep Number for 22 years. I did not network. who like who has time to network, you know, you're running a business and you're and you get out and you're like, "Oh, this is going to be a slam dunk." You know, I'm just going to go talk to the people my book of business here. I'm going to go talk to, you know, the people I know and um and that wasn't enough. You know, you do have to be humbled and you have to go and you have to ask and you have to keep asking, who else can I talk to? Who do you know? Who do I know? Is it okay if I you know, it is humbling. There is no doubt about it. It's humbling, but I've met the most incredible people and have been amazed at how generous they are with their time and their and their network. I mean, that they're willing to give their their names to someone they've never met before. Absolutely. Has been um has been eye opening to me. Um and so I've really appreciated I appreciated that journey and it just gives me a greater appreciation for what I need to do, what my next when when I'm landing, what I need to do for that person who calls me that I ignored before, right? Yeah, you know, cuz I didn't have time. Well, I think the other side of it, too, what people don't know is you want to not only find the right job, but you want to find something that is a long-term position, right? You don't you don't want something that like, hey, I'm going to hop around until I find the next Yeah. shortterm or long-term job. I want to find the right field, too. Yeah. We we actually have talked a lot about this. I think when I first got out there, I mean, I didn't want to just find a job. That wasn't my sort of my intent. that wasn't where I wanted to go. And so, it's a process of discovery, though, because the hardest question when you get out there that you have to answer, and it doesn't seem hard, but it is incredibly difficult, is well, what do you want to do? And you got to be able to articulate that very clearly and very confidently in order to help move this process along because networking, I do think it's I think you can learn how to network really well. Absolutely. And I think there's um you know I think we both maybe went a we went about it a little bit different. I mean at first you know you cast this wide net and you're meeting all these people different industries different companies different walks of life diversity of talent. I mean it's it's all over and through that you sort of refine what you want and what you don't want and what that we call it the elevator speech but for lack of a better way but for myself right you figure that out and you refine it as you go until you're very confident in what you're saying and then getting out there feels a little different than you did at first. It's we both had to get out of our comfort zone, but you know, you also can do things like we buddied up like we would go to a couple events together. That way you take the pressure off of feeling like I'm in this room with all these people and I don't know where to start. At least you had somebody to sort of Yeah. like a wingwoman, you know, like you got somebody there to to help you out. But also just meeting with a lot of people one-on-one. I think for me that was where I found a lot of like joy. Yeah. And I think we both found out quickly that we actually had a lot to offer. And so the like pay it forward, we had we had a lot of that and we were able to do that. So I think networking I I wouldn't say that I didn't have a network when I left Sleep Number, but I was a little flatfooted. I didn't have the external network. I had a great internal network. Right. Yeah. And while that's important because here we are supporting each other through this this transition, the external network just opens things up too. So, and how important was it? I mean, obviously you have to relearn yourself and figure out who you are internally, but also externally and what you want to do, who you are. So, it's like, okay, I've got to take a step back and figure all that out before I can figure out what I want to do. So, it's it's a whole journey. Did you guys do or have any coaches or anything like that that helped you figure things out? Yeah. Yeah. You know what? I took a different path leaving Sleep Number and so um the coaches I had were relationships I had in the past. I did not have any resources to look for work. So I relied on Kelly Kelly a lot cuz she she was going down um you had some really good resources which was great and just others. So it really is just relying on those people who are who have been your mentors who you the the beauty of also being with an organization a lot of people have come and gone. So reconnecting with those folks and kind of you know reminiscing but also then leveraging their where they've been in their path and how they got to where they're at has really been something that that's how I've approached it. Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's lots of tools out there and I think that was a surprise and everybody's unique too and what works for you. You have to decide that like but I tried a lot of different things to figure out what worked for me. Um so I think you know if if you're feeling like oh my gosh I wouldn't even know where to start. Trust me there's like there's plenty of places to start. You just got to get in and then feel it out a little bit. Um I was lucky because I had a wonderful like wonderful uh professional coach even before I left Sleep Number and she and I have stayed connected. Great. Um and and I think she's been very helpful. I had a coach also through um another like third party as part of um my agreement um leaving Sleep Number which again was wonderful and I think you take nuggets. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Like I think everybody can offer lots of help, but I think you take the nuggets from the places that you find the most helpful and and you've tend to gravitate there. Um, but I I literally tried everything. I went to classes. I talked we we talked to people that had expertise in certain places like interviewing and resume development. And you talk to people that can help you through the process in lots of different ways. And I think you just have to like you get a feel for like who your people are, right? Like where where it resonates and then you you kind of join and you become part of a community that supports a lot of that. But there there's lots of resources out there. You just have to find the ones that work for you. And I know some people I know they've done like assessments like here's a disk assessment that's going to tell me if I'm a leader, if I'm a follower, if I'm you know strong here, what where your strengths and weaknesses are, if I'm an innovator, different things like that. And then they also can tell you what to do with that. There are also different people that will just take your hand and say, "Here, let's go into my network." So, everybody has their own way to do it. Have you guys met a lot of people that have also helped you and taken you into their network? Yeah, I have. I mean, you get these super, they call them super networkers, you know, and you all because I I was introduced to a couple of them and and I didn't even know who they were, right? So I got on and you you just never know on that call who you're going to get sometimes and they have been five six different connections that have been really good connections. I mean people who can really help in the the journey. Absolutely. So yes I mean that's why it's important to continue to network. I I know people they say I hate networking. Right. You can't hate it. You have to you have to embrace it and you have to get excited about who you might meet. Right? Because you know what I tell you some of the I mean I've probably talked to 200 people I'm telling you and um there's going to be a handful of those people that will always be a connection for me now because they were they were so helpful and you know have and are so connected within the community. Do you think with your marketing background having that and using some of those tools to help you also find what's out there is a good way to go? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like the selling process, right? Like there are these super connectors. They're like the outside of the biggest ring. Y and they start connecting you to like the next layer and then the next layer. And some of those are the connections where things start to really click. Y and it's and it's finding organizations that you're excited about. It's it's like learning about places you didn't know existed. And I think you have to start kind of big and broad and work your way in. And it's a little like the selling process, right? Like it's a little bit of the law of numbers. the more you connect, the more opportunity that you find. Um, I also like personally, and this is the I think the value we talk a lot about like having your tribe, your people that are just your support system no matter what. I had a fellow um employee of ours actually, Eric Hogan. You interviewed him. I know him. He literally called me a couple days later and he like grabbed me by the hand. He's like, "Come on, let's go." You know, I'll I'll show you. We'll we'll do this together. And I think, you know, having those people, you know, in your tribe and your network and your support system that are even closer than say the the the broader network that you're building, those are critical people. And and you need those people to just kind of be like, "Let me show you what I learned. Let me show you the ropes." Yep. And there are there are people out there like that. And then there are people that are selective and won't let you in. For sure. There are people that are very like private that'll that'll say they're connectors, but then they're like, "Nope, these are these are my people." So, you have to be very selective when you find those people. But most people want to help and they're that's their driving force. They want to help you. Yes. When you win, they all win. Or when they when everybody wins, I don't remember the quote now, but yeah. But yeah, I think it I think it depends like what kind of connection do you want to make? like when you sit down oneonone with somebody, you know, for me it's like, no, I want to know more about you personally, professionally, and then it and then if we can each help each other out, that's great. And then I want to build so I'm building a relationship with Yeah. And some people you just connect with better than others, too. Like you just know, I think, when you first start talking like, "Oh, yeah. I don't know that we're we're not driving. We're not driving." And that's okay because the more people you meet, the more that that that's going to happen. But then equally, you meet the other people and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe we've never met before." Right? So, but you could come across someone later down the road that that'll be like, "Hey, this person that I met will be a great fit for your company or this person could be someone that you might need down the road. So, let me put you in touch with them just because you're not a great fit. That's that's where and I ask every time I network, I ask, who else should I be networking with?" Right? And sometimes, you know, you would think that they know that this is a networking call and that would be an automatic thing, but then all of a sudden it's like, oh, let me think my down my list, you know, and then they start look, you can tell that they're, oh, I remember and I usually get one or two people coming out of that question. And then I always and we read this book and it's been resonated with me, but the other piece is like what can I do? How can I help you? Yes. Like is there any is there any round I always uh are you doing any roundts that you think I could be participating on? is there if you are recruiting let just let me know because there's a lot of great people that I'veorked with and blah. So that has changed the dialogue. And the other piece I would say is like my my my mind shift over the summer has really changed a lot because when I hear so I'm networking a lot of people who are al also out networking and looking for work when they start telling me what they're looking for or what they're want to do now my mind is like oh let me connect you now. Yes. I wasn't there yet until probably early this summer. Like now I know who I can connect you with. Let me think about that. have you tried? And that's been that's been wonderful because now you feel like you're giving back. Yep. It's a purposeful like you've helped me, now let me help you, right? So that's worked out well. How do you think you've changed in the last year? You know, I've um for me I I appreciate what I do for a living, right? Very much so. I love what I do. I realized that I miss working with people because I would I always say this to people like looking for a job is is a lonely thing. It is cuz you sit in your office and you are getting on calls and things like you're going for coffees, but you're not going into work and saying, "Hey, what did you do this weekend or tell me about what your kids are doing?" You know, there's that piece of it that I know. Um, so it really helps me focus on that. I do want to be in an organization again because I miss that personalized contact with the people you work with, the people you spend so many hours a week with. Got it. Yeah. What about you? Um, I think for me, you know, I think I always thought I was res resilient. I think this process has sort of helped remind me that I am. Um, I also think, you know, patience is a skill and it's it's really difficult to have patience throughout this process. So, I would I would say I've been working on that as well. And then there's for me there's something about this balance this this part of I don't even like the word balance. It's more harmony. There's been some harmony with home and life and work, you know, work because this is being in transition is work. It's full work. But it's almost more work than work is really I think where I was previously had kind of overtaken my life a little bit. And so my kids are teenagers, right? I don't have many years left before they're going to head off to college. And so for me, one of my goals throughout the transition was to say yes to everything. Yep. As a mom. Yep. You know, and um and I've enjoyed that. And now they're listening and they're going to be like, "Okay, mom, here we go. Say yes to this." But to say yes more often because, you know, kids are super honest and logical at at the teenage years. And they reminded me after, you know, after I had I had gotten laid off, they were like, "Well, you said no to everything. You had a call. You had to travel. You had" And so there was this, "Oh gosh, I didn't realize." So for for me, this has taught me to make sure that I'm bringing a lot more harmony into that, especially in this season of life where I'm at with my kids, because it is going to change. and um and they're different people as teenagers than they were when they were younger. And then I would also just say like my confidence level is way different, you know, over this last year. I think the process of being laid off can kind of tarnish your confidence level a little bit. Imposter syndrome sinks in and it's very real. I mean, we've had many of calls where I'm like, "Okay, today for whatever reason, you know, it's just really strong." So I think I think for me my confidence has been built back up to like oh I can do this like my skills my experience my hard work my effort that I put in over the past 20ome years is good like I'm I know what I'm doing I'm valid I'm valid you you you kind of find value again in yourself that you may have lost just going through a really hard time. So yeah, that would be I would say my biggest ones, which is amazing cuz I know where I'm at. I mean, the work life balance is like, okay, work is great, family's not. You know, it kind of shifts and goes round and round and you try to balance it all, but there's not a fine tune and balance. It's always, you know, up and down and it is what it is and it kind of happens that way. But to find it, find and tune it the best you can. And especially where you're at, making it a little more valuable when you can is always a great tune to have who have been some of your mentors along the way. You know, many women, you know, um women that I've worked for, you know, I'm still in contact with many of them. Um past CMOs and things like that. Um there was a particular CMO, it was a male CMO that I just um really aspired to because he um never took anything too seriously. And I wish I would have kept that going. Like we he went to lunch every day and that is something this culture doesn't do anymore. Like we just he's like, "Come on, we're going to lunch. We're working through it. Like I'll just I'll go in a minute." Yeah. We're going to go to lunch. And and so um I miss that. So those are the type of I wish some of that personality and some of that that culture would come back because um it's just not it's just not in the DNA right now of you know where we work everybody works through their lunch they sit at their desk you know and versus let's just go get Chinese food which is what we did you know so yeah I think for me I mean I would first say my mom um she's actually celebrating 50 years at the male clinic this month yes congratulations Yeah, but her I think she's really where my original work ethic comes from and she's still my sounding board right now. Um, so I would say for sure her. Um, I also had two sort of male mentors as I as my career progressed and I would say the theme with the two of them was they saw things in me that I didn't see in myself and they were they came in at pivotal points where I made pivots or transitions in my career. And so I don't I mean I don't know that I would even be operating on the sales side of an organization had I not had one of those mentors go, "Hey, I think this would be a really good move for you." Nice. Um, and then my professional coach, I mean, we I'm still in touch with her. And I just I think people come into your life at just the right time for a reason, too. For a reason, right? And I think she came into my life when I felt very stuck in my career. And I was kind of working to elevate my leadership level from where I was to a vice president level. And there were just things and ways she talked to me that helped me unlock some things. I mean, we talked a lot about self-care and making sure that your battery is full so that you can give reset, take a moment, recharge. Yep. But we also talked a lot about how to handle difficult situations and difficult people and managing your feelings and um you know there's oh gosh I mean we could do a whole podcast on what she taught me but I think we can have it a series. We'll we'll do it again. Yes. Yeah. I do a little bit on my LinkedIn. I talk about some of the lessons I learned with her. Um, I I just think she has been pretty instrumental in my career and where I've gotten to this point. And so I just I don't think I'd be where I am if she hadn't come in at that time. Yeah. Nice. Tell me about some of your favorite moments that you've had going through the years that have been life-changing for you that have been just all inspiring. Oh gosh, that's a great question. Um, there's there's been many. And I like for me there um when we have a big impactful for work it was big impactful um projects that were meaty and like I think when you're out interviewing you know you you have to dig for those absolutely those stories and there were a couple really big ones throughout my career that taught me a ton um gave me the work uh process that I need to use And both Kelly and I were at, you know, at the vice president level. And so you you have to be thinking about the how you do it. You not, you know, just not just in what you're doing, but how you come across and all that. So for me, it's these big meaty performanced driving initiatives from a work career standpoint. But Kelly's right, like like if you think about your family and those pivots in your life, um it's a blur when your kids are in, you know, school and things like that. And um I would say now pausing I I don't regret anything, but I do I think about this generation of folks now that have a little more freedom to be there. It's more family focused now. Yeah. And I wish that we, you know, maybe we're not very smart at the time. I don't know that I would have given myself that, you know, that breathing room to I didn't miss any of my kids things, but I said no a lot, right? I kind of got that call and things like that. And that's my for my next role. I that's one of the things I want to say is I just don't want to say no, right, to my family. That's going to be my number one thing. I want to be able to say yes. So that just so you know that is out there. Yeah. Yeah. I for for me professionally, I think some of my best moments are wrapped up in milestones of um either my leaders that worked I worked with or team members and them hitting like development or professional milestones or hitting or or getting promoted if that was if that was some of some of my best moments the things that I remember from you know our legacy even at Sleep Number are when people hit those those milestones and celebrate with them and um you know so those are probably some of my favorite memories and then I think you know this going to sound a little weird but co was an interesting time for us I think not only as professionals in a leadership role but also I think at home because for me as we all came home and our kids were at home it was the first time I really invited my kids into everything that was going on at work and so I was Like I just I was very comfortable with my team bringing kids on the Zoom calls and the pets and the spouses and we learned so much about each other I think just by being so one family then your family was family. Yeah. Well and it was the first time I think my kids could actually articulate what I do. Yep. You know what I mean? Because what does mom do? I don't know. She goes to the office, you know. Well, and my youngest daughter, my daughter was pretty young at that age, but like she was curious and I love that because I wanted her to see what, you know, cuz that could be her driving force to do it. Like obviously like your dad was for you. Yeah. But also like understand that when I'm I had to say no, what I was saying no, why I was saying no, and just I think just my kids kind of understood a little bit better about what I did all the time with all the time. Um and and I think that was that what I mean co's not over but that two to three years we had which we were really intense those were kind of pivotal moments I mean we hit a career high and we hit a career low right remember I mean and we also you know for those of us that had kids at home I mean it was a high and a low too right where and it still is it still is but um I think those when I think back to like what are the what are the ones that are very memorable memorable. Those are probably the most memorable for me. So, what do you think obviously moving forward is going to be life-changing in the future? Well, I mean, everybody's going to say AI, right? Um because it is, right? It is. Um, but it's funny because that's the other thing I feel being outside of an organization is I'm like, "Oh, you're you're you get yourself frightened that I'm falling way behind." It's it's all moving, especially in within marketing, right? It's it's been out there a long time, but it is it's every six weeks is a new something new being introduced, right? So, but then when I talk to folks, I'm like, "Well, no, I'm okay." you know there that there there there's a lot of learning there and and and setting the parameters and the governance of how you use AI. So for me and within my career that's going to it's going to be continue to be gamechanging and what that looks and feels like. I use it every day in my job search every day. I literally preparing for an interview I ask the question you know help me with this company all I use it and it helps big time pull all the data that you would spend hours and hours and hours pulling. So it is it's it's beautiful but it's scary right for everybody. Yep. Yeah. And I I would agree it is I would just say it's been a very hot topic for the last year. And I would also just say though as a leader I think managing through uncertainty is a work in progress and I think we've got that ahead of us too. I think we're living it right now. I think we have been for quite some time. But I think, you know, life has changed a lot. And I think helping your employees and your leaders balance, you know, balance all of that out and and I I think that's sort of an emerging that uncertainty, managing through uncertainty is still going to be sort of something that's going to be a hot topic. Um, I think for those people in transition, I think one of the hardest things right now is that the market is just flooded with amazing people out there that are that are in transition. Yes. And so, you know, you feel a little like a very small fish in a very big pond. But I think those that do the work to really on their personal brand and they can really articulate that will stand out. But I I think it's about Gosh, you guys, you got to be true to yourself. Like there are Yeah. Well, you there's just things along the way that are very cookie cutter and you can fall into those traps, but if they don't feel like you, don't don't do that because I do believe there are right places for right people. And so I just think that transition world is a little crazy right now. We we even talk about the candidate experience right now is very difficult. It is. Yeah. There is some stuff that has shocked and surprised Lisa and I both and I hope that we see the flip side of that that's coming to an end. But right now it is it is a struggle and it is not good. And so we're hoping for I'm hoping I don't want to put words in Lisa, but I'm hoping for a resurgence back of the importance of a candidate and ta and and um navigating and and nurturing talent. I hope that surge comes back. Yeah. Because see I mean you see like even people in roles and positions I mean having kids looking for jobs as well. I mean, in positions and them applying multiple different places and like the 16-year-olds just throwing applications out there just to try to get anything and everything that's out there. Or on the other side having employees come in and throwing applications out there. Then you see all the text fake text messages coming in saying, "Hey, we have all these open roles and multiple text messages." It's like, how do you know what's real, what's not anymore with all the technology and the AI and everything like that, too. So, it's hard to say what's open, what's not open. I mean, who's hiring, who's not? Even a 16-year-old needs to network. Yeah. You know, they need to go talk to their neighbor, Fred. I'm just making up a name, but you know, and just say, "Hey, I'm out looking." Because that's the way to kind of vet out what's real and what's not. Is like, "Do you know, have you heard? Do you know somebody at this place or what? Have you do you know anybody that worked at the ice cream parlor down the shop?" Whatever it is. Um, networking is critical throughout all ages. Yeah. Yeah. So, what is your favorite food? It's a fun question, right? I mean, I love bread. Yes. I mean, I I just love any kind of bread. I mean, I'm just a big um I love that, but I'm a big I'm Italian. Y So, I'm just I love bread and pasta. Give it to me. So, have you been to Italy and the real Yep. Good. The real Italian food. Yes. Oh, it's I was I I just got back from Ireland and I was saying like just the butter slather that part of Ireland were you in Dublin. Okay. I was just in southern Ireland like Canale and Carrie and all down there. Yes, we flew in to Cork. So, yeah, it's beautiful. But, um that's my favorite. Yeah. What about you? Anything Mexican. Okay. Um, and it's funny because I've been on this like health and wellness journey and so my eating has been very different, but gosh darn it, anything Mexican. Yep. Chips and salsa. That will be a basket of chips and a good margarita. We're good. We're set. Yes. What's your why? I Everybody always says their why has to go like two or three layers deeper than, hey, it's just my family. You know, you've got to dig deeper. Have you discovered that in your journey? Yeah, I I wrote a mission statement for myself a while back and my why was like I want to be a mentor at this part of my career. I I want to be a mentor and I want to um appreciate the moment because you get too far ahead of oh gosh, what's going to happen then? what's going to but I every moment I I want to be able to be in the moment and help mentor the next generation of individuals coming through in this career. Um I my son is actually in digital marketing and so I I talk to him a lot about um what to go you know who to go talk to go to have go have coffee and those kids kids kids in their 20s that's uncomfortable. Yeah. And so I, you know, I I mentor him because he's my son. He loves it. I'm sure lacking communication of bridging those gaps. Yeah. But then just even the employees that you have, you know, how can you you spend some time just the mentoring part of it and just don't get too far ahead of yourself. Enjoy the moment that you're in because there's going to be lots of different moments coming at you. So that's where I'm at. Yeah. Um I know we said not to talk about kids, but they're actually my why. Absolutely. Mine are too. But it goes deeper. Like I think and I've said this to even Lisa, I say this to my kids all the time, like I just want to raise good humans and I want to set a very good example for them. And so, you know, if I can wake up every day and that's purpose for me, then I feel good. I think professionally, you know, for me, I I I don't it's not just about leadership, it's about legacy. like I want to know that I left a good legacy behind that was deeply rooted in relationships and the fact that people matter and and I believe that you know understanding people's strengths and aligning them not only with the role but responsibility is really important. So that that's my why professionally is I want to leave a good legacy behind and I want people um to have felt better working have worked alongside me and have gotten to achieve you know their goals like that is my that brings me a lot of joy. Yeah. When you guys have dealt with people, how have you bridged the gap from the newer generation to the older generation and helped them collaborate together? It's a tough one, right? Yeah, it is. Um, it's funny because I know millennials that are like me. Not me, my generation. And then I know millennials that are completely correct. I don't mean to to just focus on millennials, but like there I I I feel like we're all we're we're all different, but yet we are we're all on the same type of journey, you know, we just happen to be at different times in our journey, you know, obviously within, you know, what's happening in the world. Um but we're we're all on the same journey, you know, and we all want the same end game, right? Yeah. We all want to make a good living for our families. We all want career uh a career that we enjoy, you know, we all want to, you know, contribute in a way. So, as humans, we all have the same no matter what generation you're in. Um, it's just the experience time is different and um I've not found like this big like gap between I haven't found it between me and other generations. I just I just don't it's just a different um it's just a kind of sometimes it's just a different approach, right? Yep. Yeah. I don't I don't know if it boils down to like the labels of millennials and all that. For me, I think it boils down to like everybody's an individual person and so whether what no matter what your age and everybody works and lives differently and I think part of it is discovering what that is for them that is their unlock, their unleash, their you know what what gets them out of bed and gets them motivated. Yeah. So for me, I don't I don't really like think about it as generational. I just think about it like okay, what does that human need to be their best self? What tools are needed? Yeah. Yeah. Because as a leader, I mean, I've had people that work better from 5:00 to 8 at night and that is their, you know, and you want to support that and and bring out the best in them. And you've got people that are like very very different, right? So, I just I think it's about the individual human. And I um I find it fascinating to learn from like even my kids, right? Like they're teaching me smarter not harder. Like they're they're go. Yeah. I'm like fascinated by some of the things that they they can kind of teach me. So I I try to appreciate what they were bringing, you know, without getting into the whole like, well, when I was your age, you know, but it's it's like, wow, things have have emerged and I I'd like to stay on top of things, too. Always think of the new next thing and how can you grow and change from it, too. Yeah. Yep. So, yeah. What do you think as far as the jobs that are out there? How is the job market going to change and what do you hope that will be out there? Well, I hope it change, right? Obviously. Yeah. Um it um it it it has been interesting. Um I I've talked to lots of people out there like I was just on a call a networking call this morning and it was all marketing people and um they are like you can't be picky right now and I'm like oh I hate to hear that but you have to be because you want to find longterm you have to find something where it fits for you right yes and that's good and so that that was scary to me to hear that come out of professional kind of mid-level um marketing people, but um it's going to ride out. It's going to be it's kind of like it's kind of like a real estate the real estate market where it's like such a buyer or seller, you know, it's definitely a seller or a buyer's market when it comes to the job market right now. No one's talking about that. You know, you just talk about the job numbers and things like that, but it's rough. I mean, there's a lot, to Kelly's point, really smart, really great people out looking for work right now. um and just not enough jobs, you know, because everybody's waiting to kind of see how things play out. And so hopefully that stabilizes sometime, maybe it's not 25, but maybe in 26 and that will be a better job market for everybody. Well, I think it's hard to like with the es and flows and all the hub locations since co hit too, people are working remotely. So then they want those marketing jobs. They want to work remotely. And it's it's a little more difficult probably in in the marketing field too from what I've seen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but many many companies are back to the office or partially. Yep. Or they're starting to mandate and get back. So it's not like you can sit in Minnesota and take a job in Connecticut anymore. There just not as many out there. So that that's kind of changed in the last year or two as well. I think that's been an interesting transition like the mandate back to work. Yes. It's happened over the last year and I think people are having a very polarizing. Some will do it, some won't do it, they won't work. Yeah. And so I think but that also can be very limiting in your job search. Um you know I'm in a season of life where I'm not relocatable right now because I my kids are a couple of years from graduation and they're thriving and I want them to be able to to finish out in in a great high school. But that also then changes my opportunity out there. Yeah. Um, so I think relocation is because of the inoff mandates are is a really interesting trend right now. I I think depending on the kind of role like in sales there's a lot of travel. Yes. You know, so depending on your season of life and how much you're able or willing to travel. Um, yeah. I think Lisa and I I want to keep it real like it's hard. It's hard out there right now. Um, and I think it is about we talked about uniqueness and standing out. I also think like the word that I would use in my last six months of search was intention. You have to be very intentional with how you're spending your time and what ROI you're getting for the time that you're spending because a lot of people I think um I I just I think maybe they're doing a lot but they're not as productive. They're busy not productive. And I busy work not smart work. Like they're spending in the wrong places the wrong way. But I had that pivot too. Like you're not alone. Like I spent 6 months casting a really wide net until I was like I got to change my strate. Like I had took a time out. Yeah. I had to change my strategy and think but intention became the word because I knew what I wanted. I needed to find the company that aligned with you know the culture that I wanted and what I wanted to be a part of and also something that I could get up and feel joy at doing again every day. Um, so that would be my like for people out there looking, that would be my like find what you're what what you really want to do and then go at it with intention. Um, but it's tough. Yeah. I mean, it's really tough. I mean, the other side is if you find a company that you think you're good at and then you see their employee turnover rates not good. Like that's the other side of it. People don't think about that. Like, hey, this is something I really want to do and this looks like a great company, but you're turning over employees. But that's where networking comes in because like um I've shared this with Lisa too, but when you find that company, you want to network with anybody and everybody if it's really something you're seriously considering because you need all perspectives and then when you find it, you need to work at you know the company that I'll be joining here shortly. There wasn't a job open. Wait, wait, wait, wait. What did you just say? Time out. Listening. I just landed recently. Um, there's some communication going on internally, so I can't really say too much, but I'm very excited as a minute. So, she did land some. I did land. Uh, it took We'll have you back on once you land and then we'll have you talk about it. Yes. Um, took about a year, but I think um I I think too like don't hesitate if it's if it's if it feels right for you, if it feels like the right culture, the right people, the right continue to network in because one, you never know when something's going to come up. you want you want to be top of mind. But I alsoorked in knowing there wasn't a job at the end of the, you know, the end of this. By the way, there is no end, but towards the end of this and and something kind of came up in process, you never know what'll happen. Or, you know, a lot of companies right now because of there's being so much talent out there, they're really trying to diversify their talent pool. And so there is opportunities I think for people with experiences and and and um expertise in certain areas. You know, companies are looking to upskill. So don't you know, don't walk away from a company just because there's not a job open. Yep. Um, if it's what you if it's a company you feel very compelled to spit. Well, companies grow and change and they shift and they could acquire something or they could have a different location or they could say, "Hey, it's not working out with somebody else and they want to try a different lane or whatever it may be." You just don't know what you don't know and you don't know what conversation along the way. I mean, Lisa and I have talked about having hundreds of you don't know what conversation is going to lead to where. So, I think the other thing is every conversation matters, right? It does matter. It does. Um, and it matters because you ju you just literally don't know when one of those is going to pay off. And that's kind of how it happened for me, too, is um, it just sort of ended up paying off, but I I didn't see it come, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't see it coming right away. So, let's divert a little bit and talk about your marketing background a little bit more, just so our viewers know your marketing. We'll start with you, Lisa. How in-depth has it been? and tell about some of your marketing background strengths that you've had so our viewers know how in-depth it's been and some of the strengths that you've had in the marketing world. Yeah, like you've said though, marketing has changed since I started in my career. Um, I was in direct response advertising. So, I was doing cataloges. Yep. We were doing all paper. We were mailing, you know, mailing things out. Um, so I'm in the newspaper business, so I get it. Trust me, it's Yeah, you could just That ages me big time. I like I that's what I started out in is really kind of that direct you send things out you expect a response back so hence the direct response um and it's it's then when um you reinvent yourself and that's what I would turning the wheel you have to as a individual you have to kind of re pause pause in your career and kind of reinvent yourself and think and look for those white I I call them white spaces of things that you want to go try to do that maybe no one's doing within an organization. Um so I've done that throughout my career. Um and then it literally went from direct response and then it translated into retail advertising which is a whole another but that was another area again similar you're trying to drive a response and the response this time is not is to get someone to come into a store and so that is a different way of looking at a different way of marketing and then then you've gone from retail and how you did that to you know you've gone to digital marketing it's like oh my gosh what's this digital marketing thing and now now almost all you're spending is from a media perspective in that type of spending and and then now a is going to be the next thing. But you have to be willing to re-educate and reinvent yourself throughout your career because it does not especially today in today's you it does not stay steady, right? And you have to be willing to learn and you have to be willing to learn from people who are half your age. You know, you just do because they're getting they're much more into the weeds on how to and you have to learn through that. Yes. Um, so that's that's for me I I just that's why I love marketing and media so much because it doesn't stay steady. It's constant you're constantly learning and it's scary because all of a sudden it's like, "Oh my gosh, I got to learn how to do digital. What's digital? I don't know what that is." And you do you learn it and um same I'm sure everybody's like, "Oh my gosh, I got to learn AI. I'm way behind." But there are tools for it. It's so exciting. Yeah. My my experience is a little bit different in marketing. So I spent most of my time on the promotion side. So think discounts, financing, um customer loyalty, um repeat referral side of it, also um communication. So you know, we put all this great stuff together in marketing and we're bringing it all together, tying it off with a bow, but you forget that you've also got to communicate and you've got to bring value with your salespeople so they know how to feed off of what what we're trying to promote it. So my my experience was on that side of it. um I got to see all of it which was awesome and bring it together but then um you know the communication side was a pretty important which is a big step because the communication on both sides from talking to the team and the sales staff and everything like that but also learning the communication of marketing in itself has grown and changed and how do you keep learning all the communication and all the technology out there and how do you intertwine them both? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the consumer obviously is super important in all the equation in marketing, but I woke up every day knowing that I have to there's, you know, 1,500 2,000 sales people out there that need to put food on their table and they need to feed their mouth. Yeah. And so that's why that was that was why it was so important you know that you know we worked so closely with Kelly and her team too because they are what we're working for is to get them what the tools they need in order to go to the consu consumerf facing and make make it all happen happen. So um so that you that's a different way of looking at it within marketing but it's it's critical um especially if you're in a retail environment. Yes. Well I think people don't understand that. I mean, as a business owner, as a someone higher up in the food chain, vice presidents, presidents, you have the staff that have to go home and feed their families. Yes. And that's the ultimate goal. If you don't make money and you're not doing what you're doing, people aren't getting paid, and they're not getting their commissions, they're not getting money, and their families aren't getting what they need and want. So, I mean, that's that's driving force behind a why, too. It's not just your family, but it's everybody else below you. Exactly. And if you don't know how to make them thrive and have them hit their goals and seeing someone that finally reached their goal or surpassed it and moved up the ladder, that's fun. That's exciting to see them do that. So, yeah, it really is. Yeah. I mean when you're with them with this with the consumerf facing people Yeah. like in an environment like you you know when we get people together you're just so you just watch in awe y of what they do every day and what they do for the organization and and it just it is it fills your heart. It really does. One of my favorite things from being at Sleepnumber that we was integrated sort of in our culture was these le these learning or listening sessions where every week we would ho I would host a listening session to say okay how is it working how is the marketing coming across how are the promotion like what is the customer saying what ideas do you have what can we do different that was sort of built into our culture and I that used to be my favorite one of my favorite calls every week was talking to the front lines when I couldn't be with them, right? Talking to them and being like, "Okay, did we get it right? Did we not get it right?" And then bringing that back to the group to be like, "Okay, here's what's resonating. Here's what's not. Here's what we might need to think about tweaking." Um, yeah, those were some of my favorite. They're the great have the check in like what's good, what's not, you know, and I want to hear straight out of your mouth like what works, what doesn't, and then let's change it and try it next time. And if it works today, it might not work tomorrow. So, let's let's figure it out. Yeah. What's been one of the biggest obstacles that you guys have faced other than the job obviously trying to find that and hit or miss but that has come up in like in in work and in life that you have overcome. I think it's the speed um for me it just you know um and that's the career that I chose you know when you're in retail it is you're pivoting for the weekend. Yeah. you know, you're pivoting, you know, and and with the technology and everything coming for it. It it is the speed and trying to keep not only yourself to move your teams forward, but keeping your teams moving forward, too. It you just don't want to leave anybody behind. And that's why to Kelly's point, communication throughout all of that is you got to have a good way of communicating to everybody to keep everybody moving forward with you. Yeah. How have you been staying on top of that without having like with the technology changing and everything like that, not having the job in the marketing world, have you still been studying up and learning as much as you can in the meantime? Big time. You know, you just you take as many, you know, freebie classes, you know, as you can. you meet with people who are like I met with a gentleman who was just so oh he's just kind of thinks about things in a totally different way and talk to me about like here's how I look for this through this tool and then I use this tool and you're it's mindboggling. So it's like can I record this and just take this home and rewatch it so I can take something else out of it. And I think that's where like when you're working it's so hard to spend the time to do that. You have to rely on your partners and things like that to keep you up to date. But that has been the beauty of having time is that you can take classes. You can take courses. You can I've gone to multiple networking where it's been about a certain topic. You just got to make yourself get up and go do that so you don't feel behind. Right. Yeah. I mean I've spent my career in retail, different kinds of retail but always in retail I would say high ticket retail where it's like feature benefit emotional reason people are purchasing. Like that has been my career. Um, and so for me, I think one of the challen one of the biggest challenges was just keeping up with the consumer for a while because even before COVID hit, I mean, she was changing rapidly and then co, man, she changed even quicker and by the time you think you got something figured out, she back down and changing again. So, like one of the biggest challenges I think we faced was just staying ahead of where she was at. Sorry, refer to the customers. No, you're good. but staying ahead of where she was at and then being able to to like pivot quickly to where she was. And I just feel like now that is so ingrained in me regardless of what part of the year it is. I read the retail news every morning. I try to stay up on um you know there were Yeah. Well, trends and then there were always um consumer sentiment surveys and things like that or reports that we used to rely on staying on top of that to really understand. And then um I think those are probably like that was that was difficult for a long time. It's still difficult because I think in the environment we're in she's changing as rapidly. She's you know holding on you know waiting to see what's going to happen. And so when you're in a high ticket more luxurious nonsexy kind of retail like wait I'm still looking at this and following it and doing it. Yeah. Yeah. You know it's a nice to have not a necessity sometimes. um you know that can those are all kind of factors you need to be considering as you're as you're marketing as you're selling um so that would be like when I think about some of our challenges I feel like you said pace and I would agree and I think it's the pace of the consumer changing that was difficult I know you've talked about your son that's doing the digital marketing and your kids have found out what you've done have your kids always or are do you see them starting to follow and kind of watch what you do and be like hey mom this is changing this is following in the trends and notice a little bit more now. Um I think being at Sleep Number I've raised sleep ambassadors. I know that sounds crazy, but like they are more in tune with their sleep than ever. And I think they would if they were here today, they'd be like, "Oh my gosh, mom always talks about I always say the most important thing the night before a test is you got to get good sleep." And so I think they would they would kind of joke with you about about that. Um I don't know. I'm trying to think pick up on the little things. I think that you don't realize that they do. I mean, even my kids will be going by and they'll be like, "Hey, mom, that window needs tint." Or, "Mom, the walls the wall's peeling over there. You should go talk to them and be like, "Oh, okay. I guess you're paying attention." Yeah. Just the little things. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. So, family life, you have a son. Tell tell everybody about your family a little bit. I have two. I have a daughter um who is married with two I have two grandsons. Um and my son is um 25 working at a digital agency here locally. So amazing. Yeah. She's a teach My daughter's a teacher. So I just talk about a challenging career. Yeah. Yeah. That is a hard I wish you do. We talked about this. Teachers have it tough. Um they just have it tough. They don't they don't have flexibility. You know, the pay is always a challenge. The students are, you know, the parents. It's just it's a hard hard career. But it's so critical for all of us as we send our kids off to schooling seeing those students excel and exceed and do great things and so I'm so I'm proud of her for choosing that career but it's she she's she's challenged by it. It's she comes home and it's like uh exhausted. Yeah. It's she's exhausted. Yeah. By Friday she's like ah go five days you know. People complain about them getting the summers off and it's like do you see what they go through like for the half the year that they go through and they decompress. Yeah. And not getting paid the full summer and Yeah. All I still think there's some to me there's some way to we got to tell those teacher stories better. Yeah. Because we all, you know, we all send our kids to those teachers and we just want to know, you know, what their challenges are. So we as as parents and citizens can support them because without educated kids Yeah. you know, it's impossible to have a good society. So anyway, Yeah. Yeah. And you have some children. I have two. I have two teenagers. So my son's about to be 17. Um and he is a junior in high school and then I have a freshman in high school, a daughter. Um and so yeah, now both are in the high school and I feel like I'm starting to do the countdown and everything like oh this might but at the same time like when those kids get older, we don't know if they're ever going to leave the house. Like it's like we I don't know. We'll go we'll go there when that happens. are definitely leaving the nest. I don't know for how long, but I'm definitely leaving. But I mean, they're very active in sports and so we travel quite a bit for both. So I when people say, "Well, what are your hobbies?" I'm like, "Well, I follow my kids around their sports." But but I wouldn't have it any other way either. Like And you played sports when you grew up. I did. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I think some of some of the best like lessons um in life have come from teams. on a team and and even, you know, like I would even say like understanding your position on the team, right? Not everybody's a starter. Not everybody, you know, and I think just understanding the importance of that as you get older. And then those friendships, I mean, gosh, some of those people I'm still very close to today. Um, just formed out of friendship from Yes. the camaraderie that comes with being part of a team for sure. for so many years, the boundaries, the roles, everything with it. I mean, even the coaching, like even talking to Eric and some of the coaching that you've had and just different things that you've learned from all of that, too. So, yes. Well, and being a coach, like it's funny because coaches has the coaching has changed a lot though 100% since back in the day. Yes. I mean, if you Yeah. If you'd asked me back then if I was going to coach, I would have been like, "Oh, no." But I ended up coaching for three years coaching basketball and it was it was great. It was fun. It was fun to spend extra time with my daughter, too. But yeah, those those coaches too are very pivotal. I think when I think back on like where were a lot of your values and your lessons formed like some of mine were formed as early as, you know, with with the basketball my basketball stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That's very important. Do you guys have any trips planned or any travel coming up? I don't. I mean, we we just got back, so you know, it's holidays. I know, right? It's It's the best time of year. Come on. School's back in session already. The kids are trying to talk me into taking them to the Bahamas break for spring break. First break. Big big. It's been on their wish list for years. So, we'll see. Yeah. Well, so you're going to be starting a new job and we're going to find you a great home job, all the listeners, and we're going to take you out to events. So, that'll be fun. We've already talked about that, too. And if anybody is listening, how and where can they get a hold of you on LinkedIn and and find you and help you help get a hold of you? Yeah. So, my um my email or maybe LinkedIn's probably easier, but it's just under Lisa Bailey on LinkedIn. So, yeah, come come find me and they can get a hold of me and I'll put them in touch with you. That's easy, too. Yes. Yeah, it's um Yeah, just connect. I'm I'm happy through all of my networking, too. If you need help of any kind, please um I'm happy to help network, too. Perfect. And we'll have you on again when you start your new job and we'll we'll have that session on how that's going and connect with everybody again there. Yeah. Well, thank you both for being on. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. That was really fun. You bet. Thank you guys. All right. Take care. [Music]